Medical Education US

[Corpsebean]

Hi guys, I just have a few questions about my situation.

I have been attending a community college for 3 years now, this is the beginning of my third year. My first year I only achieved a total of 18 units and my first year and a half yielded only a 2.3 gpa.

I cannot in all honesty say I was putting in my full effort at that time, but my college career beginnings were greatly affected by my mother, who is the only family I have, lapsing back into chronic depression ( a lifelong battle for her) and being bedridden and unemployed for nearly a year.

Fast Foward to now. I have had a 4.0 my past two semesters and currently have a 3.0. I am still about 20 units away from transfer, but I feel I can leave with a 3.5 at least. I have set my sights on Medical School and Psychiatry primarily because Psychology fascinates me, but probably also because of my experiences with my mom and the desire to do something about that situation for other people.

My plan is to dual major in Psychology and either Nurition or Biology, although I could change my mind about the second major.

Anyhow, now that I gave some background, my questions were these.

1. I am currently at a CC and I have the option of doing a guaranteed transfer to UC Davis via their TAA program, which requires a few of the med school requirement classes. It is my understanding that taking the four med requirement classes at a CC is looked down upon, and I would be better off waiting until I reach a four year univeristy to take these classes. Is this accurate?

2. Will attending a community college in the first place be a hinderance on me? Not to mention my less than stellar beginning performance?

3. Do you guys suggest taking an MCAT preparation course or tutoring? If so, any specific suggestions?

4. Is having a Dual major at all helpful? My choices aside from the fact that I like those fields were to give me specicifity in my chosen field as well as some broader background in a health science related field.

5. Exactly how bad is Med School Residency? I go to school full-time and I work 35 hours a week to support myself. Is it worse than this?

6. Regarding Student Loans, is there some limit on how much you can take when attending a Medical School? Luckily enough I have not taken out any yet because I have full Pell and about 1500 in Additional grants. How much debt would I be racking up?


I think that's it for now, maybe more if I think of them.

Thanks.

[DrDave]

1. I am currently at a CC and I have the option of doing a guaranteed transfer to UC Davis via their TAA program, which requires a few of the med school requirement classes. It is my understanding that taking the four med requirement classes at a CC is looked down upon, and I would be better off waiting until I reach a four year univeristy to take these classes. Is this accurate?

In order to transfer to UC Davis, you'd need to take some pre-med classes? I think that it would be best to take the premed classes at a 4 year college. If you would need to take the classes at the Community college in order to get into UC Davis, then it might make sense to take them at community college, and then take them again at the 4 year college. In some ways this is a waste of money - paying for the same class twice, but also you'll be extra prepared for when you take the classes at the 4 year school, so you can get a good grade in the class. I think most medical schools will view the community college level classes as less intense than what you'd take at a 4 year school, and therefore, not as good as taking at the 4 year college.

2. Will attending a community college in the first place be a hinderance on me? Not to mention my less than stellar beginning performance?

I don't think attending Community College will be much of a hindrance - assuming you can explain in interviews why you took that route. I think the most common reason is because of cost factors. The less than stellar performance will be more of an issue. It does seem that you've improved your GPA quite a bit, so that is good. It also seems that you have a reasonable explanation for why your grades were not so good. If you do very well the rest of college, it would seem to show that you are capable of performing well enough academically. Of course, you have the a lot of challenging courses ahead of you, so plenty of opportunity to prove yourself.

3. Do you guys suggest taking an MCAT preparation course or tutoring? If so, any specific suggestions?

I took the Kaplan MCAT course. I only went to 1 class, then just studying on my own from their materials - books and tapes. I think overall it was worthwhile, because it gave me structure with how to study. I actually taught the Kaplan course for a little while during my medical school. They run a good operation. I think if someone is very motivated and has the right study materials, they can manage without a review course. I think the course itself was fairly pricey.

4. Is having a Dual major at all helpful? My choices aside from the fact that I like those fields were to give me specicifity in my chosen field as well as some broader background in a health science related field.

I don't think a double major counts for much more than a single major. I think your reason for focusing on what you do will count for a lot more.

5. Exactly how bad is Med School Residency? I go to school full-time and I work 35 hours a week to support myself. Is it worse than this?

It's physically and emotionally demanding. However, I would not use the word "bad" to describe it. Third year of medical school was one of the hardest education years of my life. However, it was my favorite year in medical school. On some rotations, you might work 80 hours a week, and you may have in-hospital call every 4th night, where you'll get little to no sleep - and the morning, you'll be expect to perform like a star while getting drilled with questions from the attending. But it's also the first practical application of a lot of the studying you've been doing - and practical learning of what you will be doing for the rest of your career. You can't compare medical school and residency training to almost any other job - there is nothing to compare with dealing with life and death issues on a regular basis. Everyone reacts to the stress differently - some thrive on it.

6. Regarding Student Loans, is there some limit on how much you can take when attending a Medical School? Luckily enough I have not taken out any yet because I have full Pell and about 1500 in Additional grants. How much debt would I be racking up?

My sense is that if you are studying to be a doctor, they will lend you about as much money as you want. That's usually enough money to cover tuition, plus room and board / expenses. When I was in medical school (92-96), at Univ of Chicago, the cost of school was aorund $30k for the first 2 years, and around $45k for the last 2 years - so, total was around $150k. I think loans up to that amount were available.

Feel free to ask more question as you come up with them. I think the above questions were excellent questions. I wish you luck.

[Corpsman-Up]

Hey there. I also was a CC student (way back in the day), and I do recommend that you take the bulk of your pre-med coursework after you transfer to your 4-year school. You will, in most cases, feel more prepared for the MCAT that way.

Your early false-start will not be much of an issue, IMHO, especially if you continue your excellent performance into the rest of your undergraduate education! In fact, the experience with your mother is an important one in leading you to consider medicine in the first place, as I understand it, so it was not necessarily wasted time.

I took Princeton Review for my MCAT prep, and it was pretty good. I agree with Doc Admin that the review materials are of the most value -- I would also add the diagnostic MCATs to that list. Sure, the companies give you a real ball-buster on the first one to make you freak out and think you need their course, but it is good to take a bunch of timed exams and see how you are doing. (Bear in mind that some people can do all of that on their own, which is awesome if you are one of those people.)

I firmly believe that the most important decision about your undergrad major is DO YOU LIKE IT?! If you dig both majors for a double major, and it isn't going to cost you a solid science GPA, knock yourself out. If you are just doing it to look cool for the admissions committee, fuggedaboudit.

I can't comment on residency, as I am still in med school, but my friends who are residents are busy. Certainly, the good thing is that most of them seem to love what they are doing, so that is a good deal. My buddy is about to graduate from his OBGYN residency and is interviewing for jobs now, and that pretty much seems to make the residency all worthwhile.

Student loans are only a big deal if you have a pantload of loans going in (as my wife and I did, both of us having attended grad school beforehand). However, it is my experience that you can ALWAYS find a lender if you are in medical school... they know you are going to be good for it!

I run out of federal loan eligibility in my third year, but once my military gig kicks in that will become a non-issue. If you are not military-averse, I recommend at least LOOKING at the HPSP scholarship trhough the Army, Navy or Air Force... I think it is one of the best deals in medical education. Get paid to go to school, make more money as a resident, and work at a great hospital afterward for a few years, and then move into the civilian sector experienced and debt free? Not bad. Not bad at all.

GOOD LUCK! I am always pulling for more of my fellow CC-grads to get into medical school.

[Corpsebean]

Okay, a few more questions guys.

1. I am curious as to how a normal work week is for the Psychiatrist who works in a hostpital? How about Private Practice?

2. Is it a constant battle for the Psychiatrist to balance time for family/leisure with work?

3. Are you genuinely happy as a Psychiatrist? Was going to medical school worth the stress?

4. What was your GPA and Major upon application and acceptance to medical school?

5. What would you say is the needed GPA to have a good shot at medical school? California specifically, but a general idea would do.


Thanks guys, more to come as I think of them.

[DrDave]

1. I am curious as to how a normal work week is for the Psychiatrist who works in a hostpital? How about Private Practice?

The nature of work can vary dramatically, both for in hospital work and for outpatient work. I work for a state hospital, so my inpatient work is pretty structured - go in around 8am, leave around 4pm. I see new patients when they are admitted, see patients I've admitted previously, and discharge patients when they are ready to go. I attend team meetings regularly to discuss the progress of patients several times each week. I also supervise Northwestern residents who do a 3 month rotation on my unit - so I meet with them regularly to discuss the patients they are following. I think it is more common for people to work primarily in the outpatient setting. Depending on their arrangements, if they follow patients in the hospital as well, they might "round" on their hospital patients first thing in the morning, or have another break in their office schedule during the day to round. Not everyone follows hospitalized patients. Office hours can vary a lot also - some psychiatrists will see one patient per hour, if they are providing therapy (while a small minority of psychiatrists ONLY see patients for 1 hour appointments, many will have a few therapy cases they follow). I think most psychiatrists will see anywhere from 2-4 patients per hour for follow-up medication management appointments, and anywhere from 1-2 patients an hour for new intake appointments. It is usually up to the psychiatrist how many patients they want to see per hour - of course, the more patients you see, the more you make. Also, the number of hours per week doctors work varies a lot on someone's style - but there can be a lot of flexibility. Again, the more hours you work, the more you make - in general. Which leads to your next question.

2. Is it a constant battle for the Psychiatrist to balance time for family/leisure with work?

As there are a lot of different sytles of practice, and psychiatry seems to have more different options available as for practice styles (compared to other specialties in medicine), my own opinion that it is easier for a psychiatrist to balance work with personal life. In my case, working for the state, I have a consistent schedule that allows for a lot of time outside of the hospital. I also have the additional luxury that they don't prevent me from working outside jobs, as long as there is not a conflict of interest. While I don't do any other medical work, several of the other doctors also have an outside private practice part-time. Knowing my own personality, if I were in private practice, where seeing more patients = making more money, I'm worried that my over-achieving side would take over and I'd always be working. If I weren't always working, I'd be perseverating on whether I should be working. But that's just me.

I personally think psychiatry is one of the medical specialties that does allow for a lot of flexibility in scheduling.

3. Are you genuinely happy as a Psychiatrist? Was going to medical school worth the stress?

Those are the real questions, aren't they? I am very happy with the career path I've chosen, although I'm the type of person who will always wonder what would I be doing if I had done things differently. In fact, that was part of the reason I decided to do the combined residency - I didn't want to have any regrets that I hadn't done medicine (at the time I chose, the trend was towards all primary care with specialties have questionable futures - of course they didn't play out like that so far) and I didn't want to give up pursuing psychiatry as that was an interest of mine. At this time, I'm not practicing any internal medicine, but I am happy that I did the combined residency. Knowing what I know now about myself, though, I would be less inclined to do the combined residnecy. Having said that, I don't think I would have gone to Iowa where I personally think I got superior training in psychiatry, better than I had expected, and (my own opinion) better than what is available from the Chicago area residency programs, which is what I would have pursued as I really wanted to stay in Chicago.

I would say I'm also happy working as a psychiatrist - at this time, a lot of the administrative issues are the hassles I deal with, and I think for private practice docs I'd imagine dealing with insurance companies is one of the big headaches. I really don't think I'd be this happy doing any other type of medical specialty.

As to whether the medical school was worth the stress, that's a little less clear in my case, but I am glad that I did it. First, I'm glad because I like the work I'm doing, and I'm not worried about job security. I know I can find some type of work within psychiatry that I'd like doing and will provide enough for me to support my family. The cost, both financially, mentally, and emotionally was very high - I certainly wouldn't volunteer to do it again and I'm glad it is in the past. The question is would I be this happy had I pursued a different field, which is impossible to know. Things that I think of now as being interesting were not things I considered when I finished high school, so I'd have to say I'm very happy with the course I've taken.

4. What was your GPA and Major upon application and acceptance to medical school?

I'd personally rather avoid my specifics regarding GPA and MCAT scores. I was a chemistry major and a philosophy minor.

5. What would you say is the needed GPA to have a good shot at medical school? California specifically, but a general idea would do.

From some researching I've done, I've found the following GPA/MCAT scores for the entering 2001 class at the following schools:

School / MCAT / GPA
UC Davis / 10.6 / 3.55
UC Irvine / 10.7 / 3.73
UCLA / 10.7 / 3.73
UC San Diego / 10.7 / 3.70
UC San Francisco / 11.2 / 3.77
Loma Linda Univ / 9.63 / 3.66
Keck SOM at Univ of Southern Cal / 10.4 / 3.57
Stanford / 10.9 / 3.68

California schools seem to be more competitive than most other states, especially at state schools. I'd say most schools nationally fall between 9.5-10.5 for MCATs and around 3.5-3.7 for GPA. There are still many that are lower and many that are higher than those ranges though.

[Corpsebean]

Wow. You are the man Admin.

Thank you for your responses.

[Polymath]

These are great questions, ones I gave a lot of thought to before applying to med school so many years ago. OK, 22 years ago to be exact. I'm 45.

{1. I am curious as to how a normal work week is for the Psychiatrist who works in a hostpital? How about Private Practice?}

I am in solo private practice. I gave details of my practice in what is now the last entry (as a "visitor" in the section "Psychology vs. Psychiatry") I work Noon to 8 PM four days a week. A "normal work week" in private practice is whatever you choose. I choose to start late and end late because this suits my particular sleep schedule preferences (control of which became even more important to me during the many years of training when I had none), and because some of the patients I see need an early evening hour. I take off Wednesdays to break up the week and because I'm trying to balance work time with the many other things I'd like to do besides work. It's important to me to make money, but beyond a certain workload, the stress and sacrifice of additional work and hours isn't worth it.

{2. Is it a constant battle for the Psychiatrist to balance time for family/leisure with work?}

It's a constant battle for me, period. There seem to be so many more things worth spending time doing than there is time available. In many ways, I feel this is an unfortunate attitude on my part. If my expectations were lower, i.e. if I just accepted work as a given, as the rugged reality of life that work has been through the millenia, I might not feel that time spent at work was time not spent doing something else I'd like to do.
For me the choice of psychiatry was a matter of balancing many factors. I have a passion for psychiatry, but at the same time I could give it up easily if I found myself financially no longer having to work. I'd spend time with my wife and kids, play more tennis, indulge in my love of reading and scholarship, do some carpentry, work in the garden ... You get the idea. But I think it is a very good thing that you are asking the balance question now. I think there are few careers that allow one to determine the conditions of one's work life as well as psychiatry, especially in private practice.

{3. Are you genuinely happy as a Psychiatrist? Was going to medical school worth the stress?}

Genuinely happy? I can't think about that without asking "compared to what?" I ask myself whether we have an unrealistic notion of how fulfilling the "right" job choice can and ought to be. While there are some people who are extremely fulfilled by their jobs, and some jobs that seem to offer much opportunity for fulfillment ( and I'm not arguing psychiatry is not one of those), genuinely happy seems a little beyond what I could expect from my work life. I'm aspiring to something more like the following set of criteria: Is it reasonably stimulating, am I reasonably ok with getting up and going to work in the morning, do I feel like I'm doing something with some redeeming value, am I making a decent living, do I have to work so much I am sacrificing too much for my work, am I overly stressed out. On most of these issues, I feel pretty good about the choice of psychiatry. On nthe other hand there are moments when I wonder about other options I didn't pursue or didn't even consider at the time. Entrepreneurship, the film industry, a rise to greatness in the corporate world, for example. : ) These are impossible absurdities to me now, but I do live with the knowledge that if my wish is to focus more of my energy on my personal life and my inner life, there were more direct ways to get to that point. I've built that into my daily life, but I have only so much of that kind of time available. The other approach -- not taken -- is to lead a very unbalanced life with major effort at earning money so as not to have to do that anymore. I know people who have done that. I am not that kind of risk-taker, I would have been very unhappy during the process, and I'm just not very interested in the kinds of activities that could generate that kind of income.

{4. What was your GPA and Major upon application and acceptance to medical school?}

I'd answer this if I could think of a reason it might be applicable. But I can't. I graduated with honors from a top university. I had a double major in Philosophy and in the Biology of Behavior.

Admin - Added link to your previous posts in the text above. Your comments are very much appreciated

[ Edited by Admin on 2004/9/6 22:36 ]